?

Log in

No account? Create an account

ish?

« previous entry | next entry »
Jun. 7th, 2005 | 08:45 am
mood: mischievousmischievous

Thought some of my friends from camp ISH might appreciate this one.

http://www.add-ish.com/

Link | Leave a comment | Share

Comments {26}

Darlig Ulv Stranden

ADD Rant

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 04:35 pm (UTC)
Link

As someone who has been accused of being ADD, but doesn't believe it exists (more on this in a second), the site was actually pretty good and I was rather impressed.

Okay, here is why I do not think it exists, or, more accurately, why I do not think it exists to the extent at which it is being diagnosed. Attention Deficit Disorder, the name alone implies aspects that I do not believe relates to nearly all the people I have met who claim to be ADD. I believe something is a 'disorder' if it truly keeps you from being functional. (Now, this DOES happen, but not as often as the prescription pushers and teachers would like us to believe.) The vast majority of people labelled ADD function just fine. The name also implies something intrinsically wrong with not focusing on one task for a decent amount of time. But this amount of time is left undetermined. I find too many things interesting to stay focused on one thing too long. (This conversation is interesting, the interaction of the people at the next table is intersting, the psychological effects of the decor choice is interesting, etc.) And I just feel that is something very basic about enjoying life and enjoying being human, I don't think that is a disorder.

(More in next post because the post exceeds the character alottment)

Reply | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: ADD Rant

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 04:35 pm (UTC)
Link

I think faster than I talk. I talk a lot because in a relatively short amount of time several really cool thoughts have passed through my forebrain and I feel a need to share. Sure, it can be annoying and a bit spastic, but, a disorder?

So far, all the people I have met who have told me they are ADD or who say they have been told they are ADD (by friends, no less) have one thing in common...they are all remarkably bright induviduals. So, if the manifestations of being intelligent are the symptoms of ADD then our society has just labelled intelligence a disorder! (Which, really, is no big shocker.)

Kids in this society get labelled ADD really because we have over-capacity classrooms and over-stressed teachers who just don't want to deal with bored or curious children. This is one of the many reasons that I will not be sending my son to public school. I can already tell that he is the type of child who will get labelled because he is very bright, very curious and very self-assured. He will be the same type of student I was. I was rarely challenged and despised busy work and this got me in trouble more times than not. It wasn't that I was a bad student or a slow student or learning impaired, I simply wanted to be exploring the world as *I* saw fit. I don't consider that a disorder at all, I consider that quite natural ego development. Psychologists such as Piaget see it that way as well which is why there are quite a few constructivist schools (Montessouri is the most familiar to most people).

There are perfectly good reason why our brains would naturally use "ADD" symptoms for survival and coping. This is one reason I like that the ADD-ish site brought up the idea of hunters in a farmers' world. Though I think the metaphor is slightly skewed. People my age are really the first of the computer generations. Video games and chat rooms. We can take in an process several conversations going on simultaneously (us = most of us). We multi-task out of habit; cell phones, PDAs, MP3s, email, google; we go back and forth between so many things as a daily routine. There are billboards, bumperstickers, roadsigns, business signs and we must traverse through this forest all while driving (and some while also on the cell phone or while putting on makeup or somesuch). As our society becomes more complex there are most things we feel like we need to get done each day and we rush from one task to the next. No wonder most of us are distracted! But, instead of seeing that western civilization is inspiring a need, or at least a habit, to focus less, we punish those caught in the torrent.

So what if a person notoriously runs late or loses their keys. All that says to me is that people have overbooked themselves and can't slow down long enough to take stock of what exactly they are doing.

So, the solution is not to drug society, but find ways to convince people that they can pare back, downsize, chill out. We seem all too ready to dole out a solution before we are really aware of what the problem is. Before you take your child's teacher's word or even your doctor's word, take a moment to think about your child or yourself and put the symptoms in perspective. Perhaps all that needs to be done is to find a better niche or cut out a few not-so-necessary todos.

Your brain will thank you for not doping it up and stunting its potential.

End rant.

Reply | Parent | Thread

dr. pangloss

gedankenfrage

from: denshi
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 04:43 pm (UTC)
Link

Does a thought that goes by too fast to be related cogently and coherently to another human really exist?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: gedankenfrage

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 04:56 pm (UTC)
Link

considering that I now know that the sound of one hand clapping is the same as the sound of two hands clapping - I would have to say yes. In that same way that enough monkeys given enough time will type out the works of Shakespeare, there is the possiblity that enough people given enough time will think many of the same thoughts and the odds are good that at least one will pass it on - maybe even write it down.

And just because, as we all well know, I cannot pass up the opportunity....

if you're a thought
you will want me
to think you
and I did
-- from Scarlet's Walk by Tori Amos

Reply | Parent | Thread

dr. pangloss

Re: gedankenfrage

from: denshi
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 05:12 pm (UTC)
Link

I roll 2d6 and dodge your obfuscation attack!

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: gedankenfrage

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 05:24 pm (UTC)
Link

To steal part of the Einstein quote from your bio:

"He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical illusion of his consciousness."

So, if we aren't seperate, then any one person's thought is part of the collective mind.

---------
Or this answer....

I choose to disbelieve your existence.
*sound of dice rolling*

Reply | Parent | Thread

dr. pangloss

Re: gedankenfrage

from: denshi
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 05:40 pm (UTC)
Link

Uh-huhhhhhhh.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: gedankenfrage

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:47 am (UTC)
Link

I choose to disbelieve your existence.
*sound of dice rolling*

The classic response to this: the DM doesn't move his gaze from the player. He grabs a handful of dice and rolls them without looking. He says, "It's still there."

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: gedankenfrage

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:53 am (UTC)
Link

Does a thought that goes by too fast to be related cogently and coherently to another human really exist?

I say it does because you are a different person for having had the thought. It may not have made a sound, but the fallen tree is manifest in the forest.

Reply | Parent | Thread

dr. pangloss

Re: gedankenfrage

from: denshi
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 02:37 pm (UTC)
Link

Well said.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Looky Looky

Re: ADD Rant

from: yangenigma
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 03:18 am (UTC)
Link

Ummm darlin'....no really, say what's on your mind.

;)

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: ADD Rant

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:18 am (UTC)
Link

So what if a person notoriously runs late or loses their keys. All that says to me is that people have overbooked themselves and can't slow down long enough to take stock of what exactly they are doing.

Most of what you've said is reasonable, but I must take issue with this. This is dangerously close to the "if only you applied yourself" or "just snap out of it" attitudes that are terribly harmful and hurtful when applied to someone who meets the diagnostic critera for ADHD. An ADD-er who has "slowed down and taken stock" is still likely to be running late and losing keys in exactly the same way as before. It's a timing and sequencing problem that doesn't go away unless you do away with the appointments and the keys.

So, the solution is not to drug society, but find ways to convince people that they can pare back, downsize, chill out. We seem all too ready to dole out a solution before we are really aware of what the problem is. Before you take your child's teacher's word or even your doctor's word, take a moment to think about your child or yourself and put the symptoms in perspective. Perhaps all that needs to be done is to find a better niche or cut out a few not-so-necessary todos.

Perhaps. But one may find that doing this successfully means removing oneself from society entirely, which is nice to think about but not always practical.

Your brain will thank you for not doping it up and stunting its potential.

I have learned that my baseline brain chemistry is a lot like what people call being stoned. For some of us, there's a fog that is cleared by the drugs. Until I tried it, I never knew things could be different -- I was just resigned to the fact that the rest of the world was crazy.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: ADD Rant

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:20 am (UTC)
Link

it = Adderall

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: ADD Rant

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 01:23 pm (UTC)
Link

This is why I made note a few times in the original post that some people actually DO have it, but I just don't buy 3 out of every 5 or whatever the current stats are.

I guess I am not so upset with it existing at all but rather how losey-goosey the diagnoses are doled out. My point in that section really was to say as person more than likely does NOT have it. If you do these things and still cannot function then chances are good you DO have it. But, as I see it, the DOs are going to outnumber the DON'Ts by a long shot.

Ultimately I am bothered by the fact that society sees people who are smart, excitable, curious, and drawing outside of the lines and instead of embracing the induviduals and encouraging their awesome outlook on life society wants to instead drug the child so they will sit still and be more manageable. We don't drug these kids for their own goods, we drug them because their teachers and parents aren't prepared to accept them.

You are likely the very first person I have met who seems to ACTUALLY fit the criteria. There are MAYBE 2 others who come close, but not quite. The rest of us are just unfortunately a personality type and/or ego development level that our society doesn't know how to integrate.

So - I should amend the post to say that the name isn't an issue, just how often is seems to be misdiagnosed.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: ADD Rant

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 10:47 am (UTC)
Link

Defining something incorrectly and then claiming it doesn't exist based on that definition is a straw-man argument.

I believe something is a 'disorder' if it truly keeps you from being functional.

The diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV agree with you emphatically on this point. You should narrow your rant to the misuse of the diagnosis instead of attacking its very existence.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: ADD Rant

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 01:23 pm (UTC)
Link

see above post :)

*clap clap*

Reply | Parent | Thread

caliedoscope

*Something* ishy going on ...

from: caliedoscope
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 05:33 pm (UTC)
Link

Sounds suspiciously like a wild Aspie to me. ;)

Reply | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 07:13 pm (UTC)
Link

Heh. Well, my sister had some teachers that tried to label her ADD - luckily my mother was smarter than that! The site also mentions Albert Einstein as likely being ADD, although there are a good many phychologists now who believe he more likely has Asperger. There's another thought to gnaw on.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:40 am (UTC)
Link

There are some things that can only be achieved by the insane, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I want people to have options.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Triple Entendre

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: triple_entendre
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 11:31 am (UTC)
Link

I like the austism-spectrum-whatsit theories, but having dated someone with a pretty intense Aspie aspect, I'd say that ADHD and Asperger's are very different things. Some overlap, but Aspies focus on what is said rather than what is meant, have some very distinct physical mannerisms, and have a strong tendency to hurt my feelings disregard or misinterpret the emotions of those around them.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 01:28 pm (UTC)
Link

it depends on where are the spectrum they are and how the syndrome manifests. ie, my sister hates to hurt people's feelings and makes intersting almost psuedo-attempts at empathy (stories about the funeral later if you wish). She is messy, yet likes certain things to be organized (like books).

Her boyfriend doesn't seem to exhibit much empathy and is very organized and maticulous. Yet, they are both roughly at the same place on the spectrum.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Looky Looky

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: yangenigma
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 04:24 pm (UTC)
Link

Speaking of empathy, I found that article I was going to send you:

www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050427_mind_readers.html


I thought it was a fairly interesting idea...

Reply | Parent | Thread

Looky Looky

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: yangenigma
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 04:26 pm (UTC)
Link

I'm curious - what are the differences in the physical mannerisms of ADHD vs. Asperger's syndrome?

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 07:23 pm (UTC)
Link

Well, we could put Trip and my sister in a room together and see what happens! Heehee. Totally joking.

There are some overlaps, or what appear to be overlaps. But, for each it is a certain degree of specific mannerisms and queues. Exhibiting many of the indicating factors is also key to both. Here is a general breakdown...

ADHD
Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.

Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).

Often has trouble organizing activities.

Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).

Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).

Is often easily distracted.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.

Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat.

Often gets up from seat when remaining in seat is expected.

Often runs about or climbs when and where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may feel very restless).

Often has trouble playing or enjoying leisure activities quietly.

Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor".

Often talks excessively.

Often blurts out answers before questions have been finished.

Often has trouble waiting one's turn.

Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games).

Asperger
rarely makes full eye contact

does not seek affection in the usual way, and resists being cuddled or kissed

will be unable to play with their peers, and have difficulty making friends

does not understand other people's emotions

find it difficult to accept simple social rules, which can cause problems at school

may show very little or no interest in imaginative play. Instead they may show excessive interest in repetitive activities, such as lining up their toys or watching the washing machine drum rotate for an extended period of time.

Games may remain exactly the same every day, and be the type of games usually played by younger children.

Speech may be affected, with difficulty starting or keeping up conversations, and odd use of words.

They may have odd mannerisms such as rocking back and forth, hand flapping, walking on tip-toes or head banging.

Children with autism and Asperger's syndrome tend to be clumsy and to struggle with games lessons at school.

Obsessions may develop in older children and adolescents, such as excessive interest in timetables or lists, and in storing up trivial facts.

Children with autism may be easily upset or angered if their daily routine is changed. Some are extremely sensitive to noise, and may be very disturbed by an unexpected noise from a vacuum cleaner or hairdryer.

Many people with Asperger's have normal or above average intelligence and can lead independent lives.

Since this is getting long - next post will be a bit more on comparison.

Reply | Parent | Thread

Darlig Ulv Stranden

Re: *Something* ishy going on ...

from: she_flies
date: Jun. 8th, 2005 07:45 pm (UTC)
Link

I am just going to take a few examples from each list and show how/why the manifestation would not occur or is different if the disorder is swapped.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.
A person with Asperger can get focused on something, especially games, for long periods of time and become so involved they do not notice activity around them and may even not realize things like hunger, tiredness or other needs.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
People something think an Aspie is not listening because our social cue for knowing if someone is listening is if someone is looking at our eyes or mouths. But, Aspie's are uncomfortable with such intamacy and will often focus on something behind or above the speaker.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.
Austics and Aspies alike are RELIGIOUS about their routines. So, nothing is forgotten and the routine is followed to the letter. They will become confused and disoriented if the routine is changed, however.

Often has trouble playing or enjoying leisure activities quietly.
Playing quietly is what Aspie's do best! Loud noises are frightening to Autistics, for one. Two, they are much more comfortable in their own company which is why there are so many Austics (my sister included) who may talk to themselves or sing quietly to themselves. Most Aspie's I have known are most at home reading books.

-------------------------
does not seek affection in the usual way, and resists being cuddled or kissed.
This is pretty unique to Autism. Sensation is to some degree intolerable to them. If there is a sensation that is overwhelming they tend to just shut it out. Ie, when my sister was very young she put her hand on the hot stove and left it there because the heat sensation was so strong she just mentally shut down. Also, she and her boyfriend will hold hands and give awkward looking hugs. They have kissed once and were both a bit wigged out by the experience. This doesn't exist at all in ADHD.

finds it difficult to accept simple social rules, which can cause problems at school.
This is another one where people not in the know may witness what they think is a symptom of ADHD. An Austic child may get out their seat and wander about the room simply because there is something they are interested in and they don't understand there is even a classroom rule to stay seated at this time. Whereas the ADHD kid knows the rule exists and ignores it in order to fulfill an urge.

Obsessions may develop in older children and adolescents, such as excessive interest in timetables or lists, and in storing up trivial facts.
Obsession is another very key element of Autism. They started with my sister when she was 4 years old. She still has them (and obsession with the Beatles (Paul mostly), with Egypt, with libraries....). She also likes to have things in order - hence why she got her Masters of Library Science. This would not occur with someone with ADHD, they wouldn't have the patience.

I just realized I left a biggie out of my previous list. Autistic children/people have difficulty seperating reality from fantasy.

---------
So, you see, they are actually quite different. But, since there are some things which on the surface can be read as the same symptom, people can be confused. Please DO NOT diagnose your friends! ;)










Reply | Parent | Thread

Waterlily Jaguar

(no subject)

from: solractwin
date: Jun. 7th, 2005 09:26 pm (UTC)
Link

Thank you.

Reply | Thread